Michelle, I’ve made some small steps towards highlighting feminist issues related to AVs for a dedicated episode of the There Auto Be A Law podcast. Perhaps you’d like to help. If so please let me know at contact@autosafety.org. Thanks. Fred Perkins
I don’t see a viable business model for BEVs, and by extension AVs. In my grad engineering management course for auto leaders we spend about 1/3rd of our time on BEVs, but only one unit on AVs - which is tied primarily to ethics.
(I do see a possible role for intrinsically safe automated package delivery.)
Following is the case which ends the semester. Thus far, students haven’t proposed workable solutions to the issues. I don’t see an AV solution without first a BEV solution, and I don’t see a BEV solution. Nor do I see an ICE solution. Over the past century, society has assumed the existence of mobile power (gasoline), which seems unlikely to be available for much longer. We can transport people and goods using stationary power (e.g., trains), which eliminate the value in AVs.
AV tech doesn’t matter unless Tesla, Waymo, GM, etc. can first solve the problem of mobile power, and none are working on it.
…
Assignment:
Work as a team to develop a report to be delivered to the GM Board of Directors on the final day of the semester, which addresses the following:
Production: Are sufficient supplies of BEV minerals and IC chips available to the American market? What are the geopolitical aspects of the supply chain?
Demand: What are the price points. What is the total cost of ownership. What is the volume of BEV Demand in the US Market? What is the unit of business?
Infrastructure: How (and who) will manage the change to electrical charging to petroleum fueling
Government: What is needed, and is this realistic?
Importance of Sustainability: Are sustainability goals truly necessary? Is there urgency in meeting these timelines?
Alternatives:
Will BEVs displace the existing ICE fleet? Or will people just keep driving their existing gas-powered cars?
What will encourage people to give up their ICE vehicles, in order to achieve sustainability goals?
If BEVs are not sustainable, can the Jobs currently Done by ICE vehicles be done in a sustainable way?
What role would GM play in this new sustainable transportation future?
Possible options
- Sustainability concerns are not important for GM to address... Concerns are either entirely unwarranted, or are unimportant to GM's future.
- Sustainability concerns are real, and EVs are a transportation solution... Here is how we can overcome the "Staggering Scale of the EV Transition".
- Sustainability concerns are real, and EVs are not a solution... GM needs to transition to these sustainable transportation products.
Thanks for the thoughts. I think a mindset of BEV completely replaces ICE has significant issues as suggest.
I'd also toss into play plug-in hybrids as a bridge solution (with battery range increasing over time). Cutting gasoline consumption in half would be a big step, with diminishing returns as burning gasoline becomes the exception rather than the norm.
Or maybe GM should get into the ebike business, and advocate for safe bikeways the way that they advocated to spend massive public funds on paved roads for cars a century ago.
Absolutely agree! (On e-bikes, or even cargo bikes and trains).
My not-so-hidden agenda is to persuade my auto engineers to move to sustainable energy, and/or move their companies towards non-auto means of transit.
My hometown (Birmingham, Mi) has 20,000 people covering 5 sq. miles, with retail spread along 2 miles of Maple Road, an E/W street. Imagine if Maple was closed to vehicles for 15 minutes out of every hour, so that people had confidence to bike from East to West without fear of cars. What would this do to the market demand for autonomous vehicles, if you knew you could safely get your bike to the store, and safely get it back? And this is a no-tech solution. (And there is an Amtrak station on the eastern edge of this route.)
Hey Phil - I would love to discuss with you personal safety and what it means for a woman. It has a lot to do with rejection of public transit and shared rides especially at “off peak” hours. While the ideal would be for men to stop assaulting and raping women, that sadly is a long way off as the view of women in this country continues to be degraded (yes lack of equal rights including reproductive rights is part of the problem as it legally makes women “less than” and removes bodily agency along with increasing objectification and ownership views over another.)
If you could expand your view of safety and add a lens for women and people of color, it might get to be a bit more holistic. I would be happy to discuss these issues and share some of the work I did on the topics when I was in a different role. I would also be willing to bring in the voices from our group Women in Auto Tech so you can hear from many women what it is like to not only work in the AV space as a women, but also how we as women must navigate our movement. We think and discus deeply on this topic.
It is high time we start expanding the topic of safety.
Michelle -- I agree that personal safety and in particular for women is a critical topic.
I am concerned that the robotaxi companies are exploiting this concern to promote their agenda, potentially allowing leaders to neglect a more holistic approach because robotaxi companies say they have it covered. For example, I hear of efforts to pair women riders with women drivers. I'm not opining on the effectiveness -- I'm just saying that putting immature robotaxis on public roads (one of which dragged a woman under the vehicle last year) is not the only solution to this problem, and might not even be the best solution when the technology finishes maturing.
The other side of the coin to no driver to present risk to a vulnerable rider includes scenarios such as a woman being dumped off by a robotaxi in a strange neighborhood with no way out other than walking (a female reporter mentioned this happening to her). These concerns also apply to children who are already being put into robotaxis in apparent violation of Waymo terms of service.
I'm probably not the right person to run point on this topic. But if there are events specifically concerning personal safety of vulnerable riders and road users I would be happy to contribute. And perhaps this is a topic the National Safety Council would be interested in. I'm happy to continue the discussion off-line (koopman@cmu.edu).
Michelle, I’ve made some small steps towards highlighting feminist issues related to AVs for a dedicated episode of the There Auto Be A Law podcast. Perhaps you’d like to help. If so please let me know at contact@autosafety.org. Thanks. Fred Perkins
I don’t see a viable business model for BEVs, and by extension AVs. In my grad engineering management course for auto leaders we spend about 1/3rd of our time on BEVs, but only one unit on AVs - which is tied primarily to ethics.
(I do see a possible role for intrinsically safe automated package delivery.)
Following is the case which ends the semester. Thus far, students haven’t proposed workable solutions to the issues. I don’t see an AV solution without first a BEV solution, and I don’t see a BEV solution. Nor do I see an ICE solution. Over the past century, society has assumed the existence of mobile power (gasoline), which seems unlikely to be available for much longer. We can transport people and goods using stationary power (e.g., trains), which eliminate the value in AVs.
AV tech doesn’t matter unless Tesla, Waymo, GM, etc. can first solve the problem of mobile power, and none are working on it.
…
Assignment:
Work as a team to develop a report to be delivered to the GM Board of Directors on the final day of the semester, which addresses the following:
Production: Are sufficient supplies of BEV minerals and IC chips available to the American market? What are the geopolitical aspects of the supply chain?
Demand: What are the price points. What is the total cost of ownership. What is the volume of BEV Demand in the US Market? What is the unit of business?
Infrastructure: How (and who) will manage the change to electrical charging to petroleum fueling
Government: What is needed, and is this realistic?
Importance of Sustainability: Are sustainability goals truly necessary? Is there urgency in meeting these timelines?
Alternatives:
Will BEVs displace the existing ICE fleet? Or will people just keep driving their existing gas-powered cars?
What will encourage people to give up their ICE vehicles, in order to achieve sustainability goals?
If BEVs are not sustainable, can the Jobs currently Done by ICE vehicles be done in a sustainable way?
What role would GM play in this new sustainable transportation future?
Possible options
- Sustainability concerns are not important for GM to address... Concerns are either entirely unwarranted, or are unimportant to GM's future.
- Sustainability concerns are real, and EVs are a transportation solution... Here is how we can overcome the "Staggering Scale of the EV Transition".
- Sustainability concerns are real, and EVs are not a solution... GM needs to transition to these sustainable transportation products.
- Something else ???
Thanks for the thoughts. I think a mindset of BEV completely replaces ICE has significant issues as suggest.
I'd also toss into play plug-in hybrids as a bridge solution (with battery range increasing over time). Cutting gasoline consumption in half would be a big step, with diminishing returns as burning gasoline becomes the exception rather than the norm.
Or maybe GM should get into the ebike business, and advocate for safe bikeways the way that they advocated to spend massive public funds on paved roads for cars a century ago.
Absolutely agree! (On e-bikes, or even cargo bikes and trains).
My not-so-hidden agenda is to persuade my auto engineers to move to sustainable energy, and/or move their companies towards non-auto means of transit.
My hometown (Birmingham, Mi) has 20,000 people covering 5 sq. miles, with retail spread along 2 miles of Maple Road, an E/W street. Imagine if Maple was closed to vehicles for 15 minutes out of every hour, so that people had confidence to bike from East to West without fear of cars. What would this do to the market demand for autonomous vehicles, if you knew you could safely get your bike to the store, and safely get it back? And this is a no-tech solution. (And there is an Amtrak station on the eastern edge of this route.)
Hey Phil - I would love to discuss with you personal safety and what it means for a woman. It has a lot to do with rejection of public transit and shared rides especially at “off peak” hours. While the ideal would be for men to stop assaulting and raping women, that sadly is a long way off as the view of women in this country continues to be degraded (yes lack of equal rights including reproductive rights is part of the problem as it legally makes women “less than” and removes bodily agency along with increasing objectification and ownership views over another.)
If you could expand your view of safety and add a lens for women and people of color, it might get to be a bit more holistic. I would be happy to discuss these issues and share some of the work I did on the topics when I was in a different role. I would also be willing to bring in the voices from our group Women in Auto Tech so you can hear from many women what it is like to not only work in the AV space as a women, but also how we as women must navigate our movement. We think and discus deeply on this topic.
It is high time we start expanding the topic of safety.
Michelle -- I agree that personal safety and in particular for women is a critical topic.
I am concerned that the robotaxi companies are exploiting this concern to promote their agenda, potentially allowing leaders to neglect a more holistic approach because robotaxi companies say they have it covered. For example, I hear of efforts to pair women riders with women drivers. I'm not opining on the effectiveness -- I'm just saying that putting immature robotaxis on public roads (one of which dragged a woman under the vehicle last year) is not the only solution to this problem, and might not even be the best solution when the technology finishes maturing.
The other side of the coin to no driver to present risk to a vulnerable rider includes scenarios such as a woman being dumped off by a robotaxi in a strange neighborhood with no way out other than walking (a female reporter mentioned this happening to her). These concerns also apply to children who are already being put into robotaxis in apparent violation of Waymo terms of service.
I've been concerned about this for a long time, which is why in my article I point to an essay from two years ago on this very topic: https://safeautonomy.blogspot.com/2022/10/personal-safety-for-autonomous.html
I'm probably not the right person to run point on this topic. But if there are events specifically concerning personal safety of vulnerable riders and road users I would be happy to contribute. And perhaps this is a topic the National Safety Council would be interested in. I'm happy to continue the discussion off-line (koopman@cmu.edu).
Thanks for highlighting this important topic.